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Talk:Remembrance (episode)
Title source Ooh, a title! Where did this come from? —Josiah Rowe (talk) 04:24, January 22, 2020 (UTC) Disambiguate? Since this episode is disambiguated, and will, going forward, undoubtedly be the most referenced "Remembrance" on MA, should the currently-titled "Remembrance" be moved to Remembrance (comic), and a disambiguation page created? --TimPendragon (talk) 15:47, January 22, 2020 (UTC) : In short, yes. --Alan (talk) 16:13, January 22, 2020 (UTC) ::Tim, just as an aside, all episodes are disambiguated with '(episode)' by design. But yes, we should likely deal with the other comics in a consistent basis that way. Give it time. Lots happening. -- sulfur (talk) 14:39, January 23, 2020 (UTC) Year This can't both be 2397 and 14 years after Picard retired as he was still in active service in 2387. Picard says it's been more than 20 years since Data's death. I think we may have crossed into the 25th Century. Cryptic47 (talk) 09:35, January 23, 2020 (UTC) :I thought the thirty years referred to him painting the picture? Jkirk8907 (talk) 14:29, January 23, 2020 (UTC) ::Why do you say Picard was still in active service in 2387? Are you assuming that the synth attack took place the same year as Romulus' destruction? I don't think that's necessarily the case (see Talk:Children of Mars (episode)#Year?). ::Here are the dates given in the episode: ::*Laris says "ten years, I still have to remind you" (to wash your hands), suggesting that she and Zhaban have been living with Picard for ten years. ::*Index says "Daughter" was painted "circa 2369". ::*Picard says Data died "over two decades ago now." ::*Picard says Data painted "Daughter" "thirty years ago." ::Relevant dates from other canonical sources: ::Nemesis is dated to 2379 — fairly late in the year, based on the stardate. ::Star Trek (2009) places the destruction of Romulus in 2387. ::Other dates, not strictly canonical but possibly relevant: ::*the main action of Star Trek: Picard - Countdown is set in 2385, and the introductory scene with Laris and Zhaban at Chateau Picard is set in 2386. ::*The "First Duty" exhibit dated Picard's resignation from Starfleet to 2386. ::*CBS's episode description for "Remembrance" says, "At the end of the 24th Century, and 14 years after his retirement from Starfleet..." ::So there's a bit of ambiguity, but I think the best way to fit these dates together is this: ::2369 - Data paints "Daughter" ::2379 - Nemesis; Data dies ::2385 - Adm. Picard is organizing the rescue armada ::2386 - Laris and Zhaban have recently arrived at Chateau Picard ::2386 - Synth attack on Mars; "Children of Mars"; Picard resigns from Starfleet ::2387 - Romulus is destroyed ::2400 - "Remembrance" ::I could see an argument being made for "Remembrance" taking place in 2399, but no earlier. Where did 2397 come from anyway? —Josiah Rowe (talk) 17:39, January 23, 2020 (UTC) :::The "First Duty" exhibit places the events of this series in 2399.--Memphis77 (talk) 21:13, January 23, 2020 (UTC) ::::The painting was from 2369, and Picard said it was thirty years old, so 2399 seems right. Picard retired fourteen years ago, which would be 2385. Presumably the attack on Mars was in '85 as well. - Mitchz95 (talk) 03:16, January 24, 2020 (UTC) 30 years could be rounding since he said Data died more than 20 years ago and he died 10 years after painting it. 30 and more than 20 can't both be literal. Cryptic47 (talk) 07:09, January 24, 2020 (UTC) :::::The publicity materials I've seen also agree on 2399, which seems to indicate that it's what the showrunners have agreed on. -- UncertainError (talk) 03:19, January 24, 2020 (UTC) ::That looks like a consensus to me, then. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 04:06, January 24, 2020 (UTC) ::::::This is the last time I'm going to say this, a day or less does not make a consensus. - 04:17, January 24, 2020 (UTC) Well he retired in 86 or 87, either way 2397 can't be correct for the date of the show. I'm not sure where 97 came from but it needs to go. I also wasn't aware the prequel comics gave specific dates. If so I'm willing to concede that the Mars attack was 86. Cryptic47 (talk) 07:05, January 24, 2020 (UTC) :::::::Allowing for rounded dates, characters speaking imprecisely, etc, 2399 seems to be the most likely, but I definitely think we need to hold off on propagating that until we have something at least a bit more concrete. Here's hoping for a date reference in the next episode, or at least a stardate. --TimPendragon (talk) 12:12, January 24, 2020 (UTC) Actually, watching the episode again there is evidence to support 2397, however it contradicts other statements. The Romulan woman implies they've lived with Picard 10 years, and the news interview is making a big deal of the anniversary of Romulus' destruction which we usually do in 5 or 10 year increments. Also, if 2379 was equivalent to 2002 in the real world (Nemesis) 2020 is 18 years later which would make 2020 equivalent to 2397. Cryptic47 (talk) 13:58, January 24, 2020 (UTC) :::::: . Maintain indents. Do NOT overwrite your own comments or reply anywhere except at the bottom of the section/tread. ::::::Based on what we have now, I'm saying this episode is set in 2400. I'm basing this off of Picard's line that Data died over 20 years ago in 2379. Considering his dreams about Data, I'm inclined to believe this is the most accurate year reference in the episode, since Picard clearly thinks about Data's death a lot. All the other references still work, especially if the painting was made in late 2369, which is likely since we never saw it on TNG or in Generations. I'm inclined to agree with the comics for the rest, but there isn't enough on screen stuff yet to confirm those. - 15:33, January 24, 2020 (UTC) ::::::::The first page of Star Trek: Picard - Countdown, Issue 1 states that the year is 2386 while showing that Laris and Zhaban are on at Chateau Picard on Earth. The next page states that it is one year earlier, 2385, while at the Utopia Planitia Shipyards showing Commander La Forge overseeing the construction of the first wave of ships, when he gets a call from the Verity with Admiral Jean-Luc Picard on board about to beam down to the planet below. Thus, the attack from the synthetics had to occur in the 2385 - 2386 time period and then Remberance is 14 years after that in 2399 or 2400. Looking at the above timeline I would go with the year 2400 -- 15:37, January 24, 2020 (UTC) :::::::::I read somewhere a graphic (when Dahj tracks Picard) lists his birthdate as 2305 and his age as 92, supporting the 2397 date. Michael Chabon also used the 92-year age in an interview. Kennelly (talk) 12:20, January 25, 2020 (UTC) :::I know that graphic. It lists his serial number, his birthday and birthplace, and his current status. It does not, however, state his age.--Memphis77 (talk) 13:31, January 25, 2020 (UTC) :::::::I just saw this timeline, which seems at least semi-official since I doubt Fandom would come up with that on their own, which says that Picard was promoted in 2381 to lead the humanitarian effort, and that he retired in 2385. If that's something official from CBS, it could be worth noting somewhere, until it's either confirmed or discredited by on screen evidence. --TimPendragon (talk) 17:36, January 25, 2020 (UTC) ::::While an argument can be made for 2397, 2399, or 2400, I really don't like the idea of contradicting the year maintained by official sources like the "First Duty" exhibit. If we have to pick one, I'd go with 2399. We can always correct it later if another date comes up. - Mitchz95 (talk) 19:10, January 25, 2020 (UTC) ::::::::Going by the FANDOM timeline,then we are at the year 2399 -- 02:53, January 26, 2020 (UTC) ::::::Wikia is not now, and never will never be, a valid source. That timeline is a third party uncited paid for at best ad, and a third party uncited piece of clickbait at worst. Either way, it's not an approved resource. The only sources we should be considering are those approved by the , and that limits this to what was said in the episode, direct quotes from production staff involved clarifying any ambiguity in what was said in the episode, and absolutly nothing else that has been mentioned. The comics are comics, and the "First Duty" exhibit is promotional material, which comes after, and will never override, Picard's "over 20 years ago" line. That said, the tagline for the episode states it's the end of the 24th century, and for those in the back that is 2400. Since there doesn't seem to be a better argument than "use the soonest date that could comply with everything that was said", I'm going to continue changing all the 2399 and 2390s dates to 2400, since its a waste of my time to keep asking people to stop adding them, and blocking the lot of you seems counter productive. If an upcoming episode proves 2400 wrong, then at least the consistency will make changing them easier. - 06:04, January 26, 2020 (UTC) ::::If we're going with 2400 for now, are we safe to assume the attack on Mars happens in 2386? It sounds like Starfleet abandoned the Romulans in the immediate aftermath, and we know Picard resigned in protest "fourteen years" ago. - Mitchz95 (talk) 19:19, January 26, 2020 (UTC) ::::::::::...and thus a house of cards starts being built. -- Capricorn (talk) 02:07, January 27, 2020 (UTC) ::::::2400 is only being used because other users won't stop adding a date and 2399 and 2400 can't be covered with a single link unless you go to the century level. 2380s is working just fine for "Children of Mars". Once we have a firm date, or the season ends, then we can start using math off of this. ::::::Capricorn, dates/chronological order are a house of cards, just check out one of the many projects devoted to them. - 04:16, January 27, 2020 (UTC) :::::::::::I think the 2397 date comes from Picard being born in 2305 and quite a few sources (example: "Michael Chabon Steers Latest Star Trek") stated that Picard is 92 when the series premieres. 2305 + 92 = 2397. I personally feel they haven't aligned their dates that well. 2397, 2399, and 2400 can all be valid dates depending on what it is pegged on. If TPTB say 2399 in the "First Duty" exhibit, I'd say that was the intention, though. --usscantabrian (talk) 04:06, January 27, 2020 (UTC) :::Just noting for the record that establishes the year of the main action of season 1 to be 2399. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 21:15, January 31, 2020 (UTC) Is "Blue Skies" diegetic or non-diegetic? Currently "Blue Skies" is listed as a "Meta reference", like "Johnny Appleseed" in and "Heroes" in . But the Blue Skies article says that the song is playing over speakers in Ten Forward in Picard's dream. One of these should be changed. Either Picard "hears" the song in his dream (in which case it's not a "meta" reference, but belongs in the regular reference list along with poker and pupil), or it's playing for the audience and not "heard" by Picard in his dream, in which case the description at Blue Skies should be changed. I can see arguments for either way. Do people think the song is or non-diegetic? —Josiah Rowe (talk) 04:51, January 27, 2020 (UTC) :I think it's likely meant to be part of his dream. Especially that it's the last song he heard Data sing. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 06:15, January 27, 2020 (UTC) ::There is a definite change in the quality of the music when the scene shifts from outside to inside. I can see why that article interpreted it as coming from speakers. -- UncertainError (talk) 06:19, January 27, 2020 (UTC) :::Yes, there is definitely a change in the quality of the sound of the song being sung. The change over does sound like it is coming from speakers or a Phonograph/Vinyl record. That being said, I think the song is both diegetic for the first part and non-diegetic ( or ) for the change over second part.-- 14:17, January 27, 2020 (UTC) :::Err, I think I got the terms swapped in my reply, but I am sure you get what I mean -- The first part is not heard by the actors and the change over is heard by them in the background. -- 14:26, January 27, 2020 (UTC) ::::You're making this too difficult. It's hardly unusual to start hearing sounds coming from a place while that place is still being established. Half of all captain's logs start while we're watching the ship from the outside. Or if you insist on music, check that Insurrection scene where Picard and Data sing "A British Tar"; it's interspersed with outside scenes but the music continues. ::::And this goes doubly in a dream: if the outside of the Enterprise could have been part of Picard's dream, then surely so was the music. -- Capricorn (talk) 15:44, January 27, 2020 (UTC) :::I am not making it difficult, as you have stated. I just merely stated my opinion on the topic, but got the terms mixed up! -- 15:55, January 27, 2020 (UTC) ::::Reads to me more like you're trying to prove how clever you are (and botched it). We don't declare half a captain's log meta because it was heard while the outside of the ship was seen, and nor should half of a song Picard dreamed about be declared meta for the same reason. -- Capricorn (talk) 16:07, January 27, 2020 (UTC) :::I do not know what I did to make you so upset, mad, angry with me or my reply but I stated in my original reply "I think" meaning it was and opinion. I am not trying to prove anything other than I was stating my opinion on the subject, you and the admins can take that with a grain of salt or whatever. It is not like I changed the Main article information or anything. I only stated my opinion. -- 16:12, January 27, 2020 (UTC) I think we're all on the same page here. If the song is part of the dream, it's not a "meta" reference, so I'll move it to the main references section. —Josiah Rowe (talk) 03:24, January 28, 2020 (UTC) Unlucky mammal Is it fair to identify the animal that Number one caught as a squirrel? I don't think there's any other bushy tailed animals in the region, but then, I don't live there. -- Capricorn (talk) 10:00, February 1, 2020 (UTC)